Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Bill

My Lords, I have surprised the noble Baroness by having something to say again. We return to a very serious issue, which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised in a rather different form in Grand Committee. Certainly, he has very cleverly crafted this amendment to move the debate on further. One of the issues in Grand Committee that I was certainly concerned about was that we would be looking at an amendment to set up a system of review which was simply unsustainable because of the cost and complexity of how the persons were being asked to look at individual cases on a regular basis. I fully support the noble Lord’s objective underlying the amendment—and that is the usual weasel way of saying, ““but I don’t support the amendment itself””. I support most of what he has in the amendment. I think that he has tried very effectively to address the objections in Grand Committee. In Committee we were all agreed, including the Minister, that what was important was that people should be aware of their right to make a bail application. The difficulty then was how should they be made aware of it? What is the proper way that should happen? The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has sought refuge in the idea of having a legal aid system through the Legal Services Commission. I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about to the Government’s proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred in passing to that. It is important that the Government put on the record what their thoughts are about making people aware. How often does one make somebody aware on the basis that, if someone is taken into detention, it could be when he is unable to think clearly, as I am at this stage of the night? Perhaps you have been under duress before you have got into that situation. You are certainly worried about your family who might be with you in detention. You may not be capable of taking in what is very clear information given at the time. How often should there be a duty on anyone running a detention centre to make somebody aware of what facilities are available to them for making a bail application? What kind of facilities within the centre should be made available; for example, meeting rooms, the ability to meet quietly and not under threat—perhaps not under threat from other people who are in that detention centre as well. One has to be aware that detention centres are not always the most pleasant place to be, from the point of view of different groups who may—I was trying to avoid this phrase, but cannot think of another which serves as well—gang up against each other. Throughout it all, this is the real question: is the situation that currently pertains satisfactory? We have all agreed, at least on the Opposition Benches, that it is not. How do we move it forward? It will not be by adopting wholesale the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. Yet we need to look at its constituent parts, for he is trying to achieve the right results. It is a case of how the Government can assure us that those objectives are to be met, and how quickly. With the best will in the world, there is a huge churn of people going through detention, yet a residual number are always there far too long. As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said, we have to be particularly worried about families with young children, and we know that there are mothers at Yarl’s Wood with very young children. Throughout all of this, I have maintained that I am no bleeding heart for people who have made unfounded applications and simply keep on appealing, trying to hang on here for as long as they can. However, I always have sympathy with the children, because whatever faults the parents may have, it is never the children’s fault.