Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill

I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate—I was going to say ““short debate””, but it has been a full one. I think some 12 noble Lords have expressed their views. Whether they agree with my amendment, or think it is technically incorrect or could be improved, I am still grateful for their views. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, was not the Minister when we took the CROW Bill through, but his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is sitting at the back of the Chamber, and will remember well our discussions on the challenges and difficulties of encompassing and encouraging more people to the countryside while protecting it and the wildlife that they come to see, particularly in certain seasons. I smile slightly because I was recalling only the other day that I had quite a bit of pressure at one stage of the CROW Bill from one of the wildlife groups, which shall remain nameless. It said that it thought that I was not interested in getting the CROW Bill through. Obviously, the first part, being on the question of access—or the ““right to roam””, as it was then called—took a lot of discussion. I tried to persuade it that if we did not get the first part right, the very things it wanted to see, encourage and enjoy would be jeopardised. When the CROW Act was finally passed, one of the first groups to write to me was that one, saying that it was experiencing the problems we had debated, which it had not realised that we could have tightened up. I, too, had the question of dogs, raised by my noble friend Lord Peel, brought to my attention—I was going to say ““my ear bent””—when I was on holiday in the Brecon Beacons only last September. When people, in their lack of understanding—rather than ignorance—walk through areas where they had not been able to go before and let dogs slip off the lead, it is quite likely that sheep, let alone any other wildlife, will be disturbed. Flocks will be intertwined. So my noble friend is quite right that there are issues there. The issue rightly raised by noble Lords who were not in favour of my amendment was that it might not be worded correctly, or whatever else. I am more than willing to take it back and think about it. I shall read everybody’s contributions with interest, because they have been extremely helpful, whether they were in favour of it or not. I would like to say, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that I am very anxious that people should visit the countryside. The contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, highlights even more why, on this occasion, a conflict clause is needed. In the old days, and certainly when we took through the Countryside and Rights of Way Act, we were talking about access for people to walk and enjoy, whereas nowadays a lot of the applications coming through are for what I would call active participation in the countryside. That is a real issue that we will develop more. I have young grandchildren and a young family. When they go on holiday they like to be active—not in the sense, perhaps, of walking on the moors, but they would like to be active, either doing water sports or in Centre Parcs, where there are more active things for them to do than purely to walk and enjoy. Certainly, the amendment is not there to preserve and keep the countryside from growing. The countryside must grow; I have no doubt about that. My real concern in tabling the amendment is that I believe that Natural England must be a champion for that, and I think the Minister has kindly suggested that he agrees. It is a question of how we ensure that. It is not for everyday dealings, but for those few times when the board will be asked to judge and decide how you balance these two opposing interests. I am enormously grateful, as I said earlier, to everybody who has spoken. It would take another half-hour to go through all the contributions. I do not propose to do that, but it is not because I do not appreciate the contributions made. At this stage, I am grateful that the noble Lord will perhaps think about some guidance, or at least have discussions within the department on it. I suspect that I shall return to the issue, but I would very much like to read carefully the contributions that everybody has made. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 123 and 124 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.] Clause 2 agreed to. Clause 3 [Review and research]: