Interception of Communications (Admissibility of Evidence) Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his intervention because it allows me to make this point. If prosecuting counsel goes before the judge, he is not giving his own opinion, but telling the judge what he is instructed to say, not just by the CPS or whatever prosecuting authority is behind him, but also, behind it, the security services. I have appeared for the prosecution with one solicitor from the CPS and one from the security services sitting behind me to give the very sort of advice in that particular case to which the noble Earl refers. That is common practice. So, if there is an objection, the judge will know what that objection is and how these matters may come to light if the evidence is given. Another objection to admissibility is that it does not matter very much; it is not very probative. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, made that point. From her own experience on the committee, she thought that not a great deal of value would emerge. Sometimes, it is said, there would be difficulties in identifying a speaker. I have had experience of this quite recently in a case in Harrow involving the importation of a large quantity of heroin, some £50 million-worth, the second largest importation into this country. There we had foreign intercepts, buggings of cars and of conversations and so on, and it was highly probative. As for difficulties in identifying who was speaking, they simply did not arise. Even though some of the conspirators were speaking in Turkish, some in Albanian and some in English, there was no problem in identifying who was speaking at a particular time. Then it is said that disclosure would be an intolerable burden—keeping records of all the conversations that take place, and so on. In the case to which I referred, I asked prosecuting counsel to ask the judge whether there was anything in the intercepts that would assist the defence case. He said to me, ““No. I know my duties under the Act. I am fulfilling my duties””. And that was it. There was nothing I could do about it. I had to rely on him. I trusted him to do his job, and still do. Lawyers have a considerable degree of professionalism, and act in accordance with the rules and traditions of their profession. I think I am going on too long, so I will bring my remarks to an end. We support the Select Committee’s idea. We think that decisions in this difficult field should be evidence-based, and should be based upon a consideration of all the issues, not just the single views of the intelligence services.