Interception of Communications (Admissibility of Evidence) Bill [HL]

My Lords, of course I take the intervention of my noble friend in the spirit in which it is made. It is characteristic of her personal warmth and sensitivity. But I remain of the position on which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, has argued. These are incredibly complex matters and I have no hesitation in saying that I anguish about them. I have to consider the points made on both sides of the argument. They have been made with force and must be taken seriously. But what I am trying to do, and here I think that I represent the position of many others, is find the right way forward. What I admire in the proposition that has been put before us by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, is that it would give us the opportunity to consider the issue dispassionately and in more depth. In that way we would become even more convinced that any policy we pursue has been thoroughly examined rather than just accepted on the say-so of those who undoubtedly carry the weight of heavy responsibility. That is the first point I wanted to make. In July I was encouraged when, in the midst of those terrible events and the pressures that flowed from them, the Prime Minister expressed his personal readiness to examine the issue and made clear his belief that the case was not open and shut, rather that it was one which could do with examination. He has candidly put forward his position, as things stand, as one that rests on the advice of the police and the security services. Of course that puts a terrific responsibility on them and I take second place to no one in my admiration for the quality and dedication of those in the police and security services, as well as for much of the very fine work which they do to protect our society. But as an unqualified adherent to parliamentary democracy, I believe that the sovereignty of Parliament cannot be overlooked in these matters. In the end, for policies in crucially important areas, the view and responsibility of Parliament is crucial. Therefore the idea of a Select Committee is excellent. We have heard the arguments—they cannot be underestimated—about the need to protect the integrity of security systems, of sources and, indeed, the safety and well-being of those who work in the security services. All those issues have to be taken very seriously indeed. A Select Committee of the kind proposed should be able to take the arguments fully into account. However, what is so persuasive in the proposal of the noble and learned Lord is his emphasis and, indeed, re-emphasis of the point that any action taken would be on the initiative of the prosecution and that the intervention of the Secretary of State to protect the matters about which my noble friend Lady Ramsay and the noble Baroness, Lady Park, are so concerned would remain as real as ever. I have found the exchanges this morning between the noble and learned Lords, Lord Lloyd and Lord Ackner, a little disturbing. They reveal to me as a layman that among these august centres of expertise and legal knowledge, on crucial matters there can be a difference of interpretation. If anything in the debate has brought home to me the importance of further and wise consideration—such as in the context of a Select Committee, for example—it is what has been illustrated to us this morning. Two noble and learned Lords whom we deeply respect—