Transport (Wales) Bill

My Lords, like my noble friend who has just spoken, I, too, welcome the Bill. I welcome it as a useful, practical step forward in the search for an integrated transport system in Wales but, like my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies, I also welcome it for another reason; that is, its historic nature. As he pointed out, not only is it the first Bill of its kind but there is another first attached to it: this is the first time that the Assembly and the Select Committee for Welsh Affairs in the other place have jointly formally taken evidence and reported—albeit separately, as I think they should do. That unique process is important. I believe that the development of a joint legislative partnership of the kind that we are beginning to see is important for the future of Welsh political and social life. While I served on the Richard commission I became convinced that one of the most distinctive features of the Welsh devolution settlement could and should be a distinctive legislative partnership between the Assembly and Westminster. We see that some of those views are reflected in Chapter 13 of the Richard commission report; they are also reflected in the White Paper Better Governance for Wales that we have not yet had a chance to debate but which is before us. The Bill is also a product of that growing legislative partnership between Assembly and Westminster. As my noble friend pointed out, complementary joint scrutinising skills of the Assembly and of the Commons and its Select Committees come together in a useful and important way and are reflected in the way this Bill has been shaped. As my noble friend pointed out—I wonder whether the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, has properly realised this—the original Bill that went through the scrutiny process did have clauses relating to the railways. They were not cast aside—they were in fact shorn from this Bill and have become the appropriate sections of the Railways Act 2005. Those powers that are now in the Railways Act 2005 transfer significant powers and responsibilities to the Welsh Assembly. For example, under the Railways Act provisions the Assembly will have the power to offer financial support and assistance to the franchisees; it will be involved in the whole franchising process and it will have the power to offer financial assistance to railway developments. In that context—and perhaps in answer to the point that the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, raised—I wonder if my noble friend could confirm that the powers in the Railways Act 2005, which devolved powers to the Welsh Assembly, are equivalent to those of the Scottish Executive? Will my noble friend compare them and tell us whether the powers that the Welsh Assembly has are now on a par with those that the Scottish Executive has in relation to franchising and the capacity to finance and support railway developments? I would be grateful if he could confirm that, just in case there is a misapprehension that there has not been a significant transfer of responsibilities relating to the railways; although they are not in this Bill, they were in the Railways Act 2005. The vital challenge for the Welsh Assembly is to marry the powers it is going to obtain in this Bill with the powers that it has already obtained from the Railways Act 2005. With those powers and in relation to an integrated transport system, the powers related to the railways will be vital. I therefore hope that my noble friend will confirm that the Assembly has such powers. In that context, I hope that my noble friend answer a second question. My noble friend Lord Prys-Davies already raised the question of funding and financing. This Bill does not generate a huge amount of costs except in relation to setting up transport authorities and so forth. So extra money will come to the Assembly not under this Bill but under the Railways Act. In that context I wonder if there will be—and there should be—a comparable transfer of funding and support from what is a central government department to the Assembly. I understand these negotiations and discussions have been taking place but I think it would be useful if my noble friend could give us the rounded picture of the situation concerning the devolving of transport policy. How far have these negotiations reached? The transfer of the subsidy money and the rest of it that should come to the Assembly attached to the powers that it is going to receive under the Railways Act: could the Minister give us a rough and ready? We will not pin him down to the last pound and pence, but could he give us some idea of the estimated amount of money that is likely to take place with the powers that have been transferred under the Railways Act? These will be vital. As my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies said—rightly in my view—this Bill has to be funded from within the existing annual budget. But the extra powers that are now going to be given to the Assembly under the Act should have with them the appropriate transfer of funds and support. I would be grateful if my noble friend could tell us a little bit more about that. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, was a little curmudgeonly, if I may say. I pay tribute to him for the work he has done. It was under his period in office that the wonderful A470 was built which means that at last one can get to Cardiff from Merthyr somewhat easier than the missionary going from Dowlais who, when she reached Quakers Yard said, ““Well that’s the worst part of the journey over””. He and I opened the road together and his name is on the plaque in the middle of the road, so I accept the contribution that he made to the road building. But he did not make the contribution to the A465: the dualling is now taking place and his remarks on the development of the A465 post-dates him and there is now a very important dualling section open on the road. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, certainly struck a chord with me in his observation of the difficult balance that has to be struck between timetable targets and connections. As someone who is every week biting his nails wondering whether I am going to catch the connection from Swansea West or vice versa on the Great Western line, the fear that, because Arriva and Great Western want to maintain a very strict timetable, I will watch the train which is supposed to be the connection leave as we are pull in is a real one. That important balance must be struck. But having said that, I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and others that the railways are packed. I agree with his observations about the state of the valley stock and indeed Arriva is not great either. One climbs on these trains with luggage and everything as many people are going west. I do believe that there is a need for action on stock.