Licensing Act 2003 (Second Appointed Day) Order 2005

My Lords, the noble Lord is describing the current situation. He cannot be arguing that we ought to delay the Act and persist with the status quo, which he has eloquently criticised. The whole point about the present situation is that we need licences to be looked at more carefully and we need local representation. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, with the support of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, introduced some issues about whether councillors could make representations. It is suggested that there is a restriction on councillors if they do not live in the area that they represent. That restriction obtains only if no local resident has raised an objection. Local councillors, local representatives and local people are expected to make representations on licences—and are in the process of engaging in that process, which we have never seen before. I cannot recall the noble Viscount or his predecessors on the Front Bench—he did not have the joy of appearing on the Front Bench throughout the passage of the Licensing Bill itself—emphasising at that stage that they wanted to preserve the status quo because local opinion was so frequently heard with regard to the issuing of licences; very far from it. The whole point is that this Act brings in a greater degree of local representation and involvement. I hear the point that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, makes about the restriction on local councilors and we will look at that. We may have defined matters too tightly in terms of the concept of ““the vicinity””. But I want him to recognise that we are bringing local councillors and representatives of local interests into the debate about licences and the role that they can play in licences which just did not obtain before this Act became part of the position. We are substantially towards the concluding stages of implementing the Act and we had all these actors play their part in the development of the licences. It is suggested that a very large percentage—in the media it has been suggested that as many as 10 per cent—of licensed premises will be trading illegally after 24 November because they will not have their licences. The figures do not amount to a fifth of that. We are talking about a very small number of premises indeed. However, because of the difficulties of meeting the fairly tough requirements in the procedure under the Act, if some premises have obtained a licence and it is known and on the record that they have obtained the licence but the certificate has not been sent to them for display in the bar—where they are obliged under the law so to display—we are expecting that there will be an element of tolerance with regard to the law in those terms. We do not expect the police to be certificate chasing when they are able to ascertain that a licence has been properly applied for and has been gained. That is not a matter of loose interpretation of the law; it is asking for common sense to be applied in what we all recognise is a major change to the arrangements for licensing premises in this country. The noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, raised the issue of live music—an issue on which he was most eloquent during the Bill’s passage. Of course I respect his opinion on that. In the transitional period there has not been a decrease in the number of venues providing live music. We do not think that the Act is bad for live music. We think that abolishing the ““two in a bar”” rule increases opportunities. As far as we can see in licence applications, there will be increased opportunities for live music in licensed premises. However, as I move from the Scylla of the criticism of the noble Lord I land on the Charybdis of the criticism of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on the question of noise. But of course we are concerned that the local community will be in a position to make its contribution to the issuing of licences to guarantee that local opinion is taken into account. I recognise that what we have had this evening is a really rather jolly time in revisiting the Act. However, in the terms of the Motion, there is no intent to stop the second designated day of the Act, because to do so would throw the whole of our licensed premises and the selling of alcohol in this country and the control over selling of alcohol into complete chaos. On that basis, I hope that the House will reject the Motion.