Racial and Religious Hatred Bill

My Lords, I am glad that I did not rise to my feet more quickly. I did just as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, wanted—I paused. He has just summed up this debate with great skill, and saved me, I hope, the burden of inflicting what I would have said upon the House. I agree with the noble Lord about caution and consultation. However, I say as clearly as I can: not in this Bill. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was right when he emphasised the Government’s clear desire that this Bill should not be seen as a substitution for the blasphemy laws. There would be a deal of confusion if the two became conflated in the way that is suggested. We have had an interesting and extensive debate. The hour and 20 minutes we have spent enjoying this debate has been well spent. We have ranged over the full course of the dispute. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, clearly said that it is needed. Others said that it may be needed, but that it needs to mutate. That is clear from the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Slynn of Hadley, and the comments made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, among others. If we know one thing about this area, it is that we do not currently have agreement. That says something very powerful. The Government recognise the importance of these issues but, like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, do not believe that this is the appropriate time to consider the abolition of blasphemy. For the purposes of completion, I say to my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis that blasphemy was, in fact, ruled out of scope in the Commons. It came back in because, as noble Lords will know, amendments are not discussed in that way. There is an issue as to whether it is in or out of scope, therefore, but it is quite proper that we debate it at this stage. So while we are grateful for the consideration given to this matter by all noble Lords today, by noble Lords in the Select Committee in 2003 and earlier by the Law Commission, we are aware that there has not been wider consideration of this matter. It is particularly important, given the emotive nature of the issues, that they receive full parliamentary scrutiny, especially in the light of the fact that public opinion is also divided on the subject. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has also made it clear that the Government are not prepared to legislate on blasphemy without first consulting with a range of faith and other interests. Many leaders from faiths not protected by the law on blasphemy see the symbolic protection for religion as important. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is also keen that any legislation in this area should take place with the full involvement of the Church of England. In the past, there has been confusion between incitement to religious hatred and blasphemy and we should try to put an end to that confusion. Therefore, I am keen that we do not add to it by addressing both issues in the same Bill, especially as we try to chart a rather tortuous path through some of the difficulties with which we are currently faced. The Government believe that incitement should be bedded down before moving on and looking at the detail of blasphemy. Therefore, although I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for raising these issues, I say, in the words of my noble friend Lord Wedderburn, that the time is not ripe. On this occasion, the phrase is correct. We have moved a long way, but we cannot quite say that we have considered all views and that this is the time for the abolition of blasphemy. I hope that the noble Lord will not find it necessary to test the opinion of the House, either now or before the Bill leaves this House.