Racial and Religious Hatred Bill

My Lords, another advantage of the Bill in its amended form is the ease with which we can discuss an issue as important as blasphemy. We are greatly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who has long campaigned on this issue, in delivering what I thought was a tour de force, aided and abetted by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, with his tour d’horizon. We have had a very balanced debate. Some wise words of caution have been uttered. We have heard a powerful case for arguing that the rather aged law against blasphemy should be reviewed as part of the new settlement in this troubled area of the law. Does the Minister believe that the law of blasphemy can now coexist with the freedom of expression clause in this amended Bill or, indeed, with any slightly improved version of it? As noble Lords will know, some saw in the Government’s original Bill a vehicle not for abolishing the law of blasphemy but for extending it to religions other than Christianity. I believe that that shadow has now passed, and it is entirely right that we should now consider what settlement is appropriate and sustainable in this area in a highly diverse and liberal society. I am not saying that blasphemy has had its day but, in view of the clear view already expressed in this House on the question of freedom of expression in religious matters, I think that the burden of proof is now with those who wish the blasphemy laws to remain rather than those who would abolish them. We have heard some very persuasive speeches on either side of the argument. My noble friend Lord Renton made a very good point about paragraph (c) of the amendment, which concerns,"““any religious offence of striking a person in a church or churchyard””." The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford referred to paragraph (b) concerning,"““any distinct offence of disturbing a religious service or religious devotions””." I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is right to say that other areas of the law cover that, but I think that the fact that he seeks to abolish not only blasphemy and blasphemous libel but also these other offences justifies my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern in saying ,““Let’s tread carefully””. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, had a point when he talked about taking time and proceeding with caution in such a traditional area. My noble friend Lord Crickhowell made some very good points to justify pausing for a few moments before proceeding, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, also made a number of valid points. The noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, summarised the position by referring to the doctrine of ““unripe time””—a phrase that has been mentioned several times. It is a wonderful, glorious phrase. It is actually a complete paradox or oxymoron because time is never ripe, although many who have expressed views in the past have thought that it is. My noble friend Lady O’Cathain made a very well argued speech, pointing up a number of issues that we must consider. Although the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, referred only to paragraph (a) and implicitly conceded that we also have to think carefully about paragraphs (b) and (c), I think that, mainly due to the intervention of the right reverend Prelate, the balance of argument has been on the side of consultation. Although my noble friends will be voting in accordance with their conscience on those matters, there is some merit in pausing to consider what, in essence, the right reverend Prelate enunciated—namely, a red signal to this amendment but a green signal to the principle. We have to pause for a moment to try to work out what that means. I suppose it means that we should take a little time carefully to think through what we are doing; or it could mean that the Bishops’ Bench want a little time to think through what their advice will be. I do not think the argument that this is not the Bill holds up. In its truly amended form, it deals with this issue. Therefore, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has every right to say that this is the moment on which we have to reach a decision. Speaking for myself, however, I find it difficult to vote in favour of the amendment in the face of the red light from the Bishops’ Bench and, indeed, some of the good speeches made by my noble and learned friends. On balance, therefore, I would side with caution and consultation, just as we went with caution and consultation about the whole text of the Bill a few moments ago. I hope that consultation can be meaningful and speedy. The Government have said that they want their Bill, and that they have instanced the manifesto commitment. Surely, however, particularly in the light of this debate, there is a good argument for saying that we ought now to take the time to get this Bill right before we return it to the other place. I do not see the need of rushing to a date for Third Reading. Rather, as my noble friend Lady Carnegy of Lour said earlier, there is an argument perhaps for having a recommittal of the Bill, to go through it line by line in Committee. Why is there this rush? It is surely much more important that we get this right than we move speedily to get it wrong. These issues are so important that I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, having initiated a good debate, will be content to wait for a further period of consultation before moving to a vote. In the mean time, I leave it to my noble and learned friends to exercise whatever decision the House may be asked to take on the grounds of their own conscience.