Racial and Religious Hatred Bill

My Lords, I hope that I am not out of order in responding to some of the points made. I say to my noble friend Lord Wedderburn that I did not by any means wish to be curt but of others wanted to speak. There has been much helpful discussion about where we are now. We very much take into account the comments that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made about ensuring that we look at the broader framework within which this issue sits. He is right to identify a potential difficulty, and we are bearing that in mind as we go forward. The noble and learned Lord is absolutely right to say that we would hate to see a cloak being given to acts which should properly be dealt with by virtue of an assertion that they were made on some basis of faith. We are very alive to that point. We are seeking a level of consensus, and therefore I am concerned in case the noble Lord, Lord Lester, feels that I have in any way trespassed into an area which would make that more difficult. I hope that I have not done so. This is not an easy area, as I believe we have all demonstrated in our comments. I very much appreciate the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, who asked whether this is the right time. We are where we are, and certainly the consensus view is that we should try to make progress, if we can, between now and Third Reading in the hope and aspiration that Third Reading can take place at a sensible time when we will have had discussions and will be able to make progress. To do otherwise would defeat the whole purpose of the debate that we are having now. I shall deal with the issues in order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, we are absolutely determined to ensure that frivolous and vexatious cases should not be brought. That is very much part of the thrust of what everyone wishes to see and, as we all know, there is already a sift from the CPS and the Attorney-General. However, I listened carefully to the point made both in Committee and today that it is not just the charges that should be taken into account but also the nature of the bringing of investigations. I very much take that on board. I take on board, too, comments made in relation to intent and the ““likely to”” test. We have had a number of discussions about whether intent simpliciter is enough or whether recklessness or other issues should be considered. I simply reassure the House that those issues are exercising our concerted efforts. I just say to noble Lords that we have to keep the benchmark which will enable proper—I emphasise ““proper””—prosecutions still to be possible. I am sure that no one in the House would like us to arrive at a situation where proper prosecution of proper cases in relation to inciting racial and religious hatred were not possible because of any changes that we make. I know that that is not what anyone in this House wishes. I hope that I have made it absolutely clear that we understand that freedom of expression is the biggest issue which has caused the most concern. Proper debate, proper discussion and proper criticism of differences in faith and religious belief should not be chilled but should be capable of continuing with an appropriate amount of vigour and vim, as would be consistent with a vibrant democracy. We understand that too. So we will look very carefully to see whether a formula can be brought forward with which all parties can feel more content. We are seeking consensus, so it will be incumbent upon us all to move a little. We would like a situation where all would be content, if not totally thrilled. That is an aspiration that we should seek to deliver. I emphasise that many say that the Government’s position as presented in Committee was the correct position from which we should not move. We understand that a whole spectrum of views have to be brought together to a position where each can feel comfortable. I know that those sitting on the opposite Benches have similar difficulties going the other way, too.