Racial and Religious Hatred Bill

I support the amendment and I strongly agree with the sentiments expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, when he reminded us that the purpose of the amendment was to deal with the question of intention or incitement. The whole Chamber should recognise that a valuable and helpful attempt has been made by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Hunt of Wirral, in laying this new framework before us. It will provide a new framework should the amendment be agreed. There is sense, therefore, in having a Division in Committee. We were rightly reminded by the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, that we are entitled to do so if we wish although in recent years it has not always been our practice. If we are to put a new framework for the Bill in place, now is the time to do so. If it needs to be changed in ways such as those outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who made his usual thoughtful, consistent contribution on this issue, we shall be free to do so on Report. There is merit, therefore, in reaching today a conclusion on the amendment. There are good reasons for agreeing the amendment, not least because at Second Reading many noble Lords expressed the wish that the Bill had not been brought forward. We have to recognise some of the realities expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and others that because it is a manifesto commitment the Government clearly will see the Bill on to the statute book. Therefore, we have to recognise that there will be legislation and we have to do what we can to make it workable. That is the spirit that the noble Baroness adopted—we are pleased to see her back in her usual place—in the letter circulated to Members of the House earlier today. We have already received at least one briefing note contesting four of the points in the letter. I shall happily let the Minister have sight of that note if she has not seen it. Nevertheless, I recognise in the final paragraph of the Minister’s letter a willingness to continue in discussion and dialogue with those who are willing to seek to make it a better Bill and to achieve the purpose for which the Government say it is intended. Anyone who followed the events in Burnley mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, or those in Birmingham this weekend, knows that there are deep issues of alienation which we have to address. However, many of us believe that the Bill may be the wrong remedy and that legislation is not the way forward. I was struck by the words of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool—he is in his seat—in an article published on 24 October. He said that neighbourliness between religions is the soil in which our society can grow into the future. He set out reasons why such a constructive approach between the denominations and religions is the way forward, breeding a climate of tolerance rather than legislation. I was also struck by a letter I received since Second Reading from the chairman of the Metropolitan Police Safer Neighbourhoods Multi-Faith Forum, Dr Stuart Burgess. He said:"““It is the case that faith communities hold divergent views and there are circumstances in which these differences are aired even in situations where this may be seen or heard by members of other faith communities. However, there is a need to maintain a clear distinction between debate founded on mutual respect and the expression of hostile views with the requisite intent to cause offence or generate hatred. It is the view of this forum that the legislation as it appears in its current form fails to maintain this distinction””." The noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Lester, seek to draw again that distinction through the amendments. My fear is that vexatious litigation will be generated by the legislation. The noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Wedderburn, mentioned the situation in Australia. There is a purely vexatious case before the courts in Australia on not identical but similar legislation. They have taken to court clergymen in Australia who have been running the Alpha course which is comparable to courses being run throughout this country.