Fraud Bill [HL]

I have to resist this amendment as well. I remind the Committee of the beauty of the simplicity of the new offence as drafted. If we take fraud by false representation, it is simply a requirement that a person makes a false representation, does so dishonestly and intends, by making that representation, to make a gain for himself. What does the noble Lord mean by introducing the concept of ““material””? This is a representation which is made dishonestly with the intention of having this consequence. So, is it material to be judged in the defendant’s mind? He obviously thinks the representation is material in the sense that thereby he intends to make a gain and maybe other misrepresentations as well. If he does so, why should some objective test of materiality judged by a jury have anything at all to do with the nature of his conduct and the criminality of what he is doing? If the person is unaware that the representation is false and believes it to be true, he will not be guilty of the offence. But if he makes the representation dishonestly and intends to make a gain, why should it matter that by someone else’s standards this is or is not material? I say that in relation to the first amendment to which the noble Lord spoke. Amendments Nos. 4 and 7 deal with the time at which the representations are to be true. I agree with the noble Lord that it is implicit in the drafting of Clause 2 that the only time at which one can make a judgment about whether the defendant thinks his representation is, or might be, untrue, is when he makes the representation. So if he believes it to be true at the time he makes it, he cannot have been dishonest. There seems to be no point in including the additional words. As I said on Amendment No. 8, there is no benefit in introducing an unnecessary requirement to prove materiality in someone’s eyes; indeed, it will create an additional burden for the prosecution to meet. On the basis of those two disparate although connected points, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.