Charities Bill [HL]

That exchange does not take us anywhere with regard to my amendment. My amendment is addressed to tribunal cases and what I would call run-of-the-mill tribunal cases, not ones of great national or public importance, where I concede that concessions have been made in proposed new Section 2D. However, run-of-the-mill cases—in legal terms—are of the greatest possible importance to the applicant charity. I cast no aspersion or blame in this matter because there is no reason why the Minister or his officials should have any realisation of how hopelessly inhibiting it is for a charity to incur the legal costs necessary even to deal with a run-of-the-mill case before a tribunal. In the simplest of cases, for preparing a case and appearing before the tribunal, one is talking of a four-figure, sometimes a five-figure sum. These days it is not difficult to incur legal costs running into five figures. The kind of charities with which I am used to dealing have a severe dislike of incurring legal fees. That is about as far from their   frontline purposes as one could imagine. Also, charities simply do not have the kind of reserves that enable them to put those sums at risk. I ask the Minister to reconsider this matter as I believe that there is an unreal understanding on the government Benches about the reality of the position that I am trying to describe. I would also be most grateful if he would drop me a line on the access to the Legal Services Commission for important cases. I am not aware of the authority that allows the Legal Services Commission to warrant the costs of an applicant in a case before this tribunal. As I say, hitherto, the general position has been that legal aid for legal proceedings was not available for charities. I would be most grateful if the Minister would enlighten me on at least that limited point.