Charities Bill [HL]

I venture to suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, meant to say, ““The answer to the noble Lord is ‘Yes’””. You cannot use Gift Aid for the purposes of paying school fees. That is correct. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, who in his traditional courteous and helpful way has done the best that he could with his brief, if I can put it that way. The noble Lord, Lord Best, made a useful contrast between private and charitable schools, which is important for us to remember. As regards the tone of the debate, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dahrendorf, that I absolutely accept that public benefit must be given its full breadth, which includes gifted pupils. The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, mentioned the Scottish Charities Bill. I repeat that the language in the Bill there, whether it was inserted at the recommendation of the Liberal Democrats or not, is utterly different from this, and in my view is inappropriate for our Bill. The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, made an interesting point about the quiet spur to continue charitable activity on the part of schools, which I agree with. The noble Lord, Lord   Hodgson, made his point around the fact that we are giving the Charity Commission the job of deciding what public benefit is, and we should let it get on with it. The whole of my argument—and this was not replied to by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam—hinges on the fact that the common law, which is undisturbed by the Bill, is antithetical to the very issue that we have been talking about—namely, whether the Charity Commission can look at the impact on public access of fee-charging by the charity concerned. If the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, would go away from this House today and get the Attorney-General to instruct his counsel on charity matters to give an independent view of the impact of Re Resch on the issue, that might be helpful to the House. My view would undoubtedly be amended if counsel were to disagree with the view that I and many other charity lawyers hold. If on the other hand he comes back and says, ““Yes, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is broadly right””, then I fear   the whole basis on which the noble Lord, Lord   Bassam, advanced his response is fallacious, and the amendment is needed. I am going to sit down now, and I am grateful to all those who spoke in the debate.